Welcome back to our monthly fireside chat with a physician to get to know their journey, their joys, and their struggles with finances and outside of finances.
This show is not always about actionable content. It is however a chance for you to see behind the curtains, to walk in another person’s shoes and experience their lives.
Our next guest is a neurologist and is a graduate of Case Western Reserve University School of Medicine, and completed neurology residency training at The University of Chicago Hospital.
She is an adjunct professor at John Carroll University in Cleveland, OH, and is a featured medical writer for a number of websites, including nonclinicaldoctors.com, Verywell.com, Neurology Times, and Physician Money Digest. Dr. Moawad is the author of Careers Beyond Clinical Medicine, an Oxford University Press publication
I can’t wait to hear about her journey!
Please help me welcome Dr. Heidi Moawad.
In this podcast, you will…
- Why she became a physician (Hint: It’s a family thing)
- Discover what inspired her to write a book about the life beyond clinical medicine
- Learn how being in an immigrant family influenced her perception of money
- What is the advice she would give to her younger self (Hint: this has to do with her decision with what happened right after residency)
- Discover the costly mistake with negotiation and tail insurance that she made
- Why she doesn’t think of medicine as an honest profession even though she wants it to be
- Learn what financial freedom means to her
- How she got started in her writing career and started to get paid
Resources Mentioned In This Podcast
Dave: My name is Dave Denniston your host and welcome back to the latest episode of the Freedom Formula Four Physician Podcast. Well, welcome back my friends to our monthly fireside chat with a physician to get to know their journey, their joys, and their struggles with finances and outside of finances. And has you know this isn’t always about content and what I love about this particular segment there is actually a chance for you to see behind the curtain of another physician shoes, to walk in their shoes to experience their lives. Now, our next guest, she is a neurologist, she is a graduate of Case Western Reserve university, and she completed neurology residency training at the University of Chicago. Now she does more than just practice medicine, she is an adjunct professor at the John Cleveland University in Cleveland Ohio, but she is also a medical writer for a whole number of website including: nonclinicaldoctors.com, verywell.com, neurology times and physician money digest. And with all of that she has also written a book which is entitles “Careers Beyond Critical Medicine” which is published by Oxford University Press. So, I can’t wait to hear about her experiences please help me welcome Dr. Heidi Moawad, Welcome Heidi.
Heidi: Thank you Dave, nice to talk to you today.
Dave: Awesome, so glad to have you here with us to empower us with your knowledge, to help other physicians, because initially we’re all about helping doctors slash their debts, slash their taxes and live liberated lifestyle; but before we get into that tell us a little bit about you. Where did you grow up and what was your childhood like?
Heidi: Oh, well thank you Dave, I did grow up in Cleveland Ohio and I came from a medical family, so pretty much not just my father but my whole extended family is physicians. So, it was always kind of practically default decided for me that I would become a physician as long as I have the grades to do it. And so, there is something I really just hadn’t really thought of that much, I hadn’t really considered other options, and I went to medical school, and I absolutely loved neurology. It totally captured my interest and I love neurology residency. And then when I started working, I just kind of had this sense a little bit of what else is out there and has physicians are constantly complaining about all the different regulations, and all the things that physicians are being told to do, I really wanted to know; why not me? Why can’t I figure out what’s going on behind the scene, and who is making the rules and who is pulling the strings, and I had the typical kind of attitude of insurance companies shouldn’t tell me what to do, and I’m so smart I know what test to order. But then I had a very important conversation one time with one of those insurance companies people who was telling me that I couldn’t order a test, and I found that he founded the company he was a physician, and he was running this awesome company, and he was more than happy to consider the idea of having a neurologist, and it open this whole door for me of figuring out what’s going on behind the scene; in payment, and payment policy, and insurance company and all that stuff that seems kind of like this closed door, and I wanted to peek behind it. So, I started working for them and it was absolutely wonderful, I loved it, I learn so much. I gained a lot of confidence in doing something that I didn’t know how to do before, and so that was just a great experience for me , and that’s what essentially led me to write my book “Careers Beyond Critical Medicine”; because throughout those years that I was working for this consulting company, I had so many doctors who, some of them I hardly even know them would have gotten my number from a friend and call me and ask me how to find job like that. And I felt like you know what, I need to consolidate all of this together and help people find a job outside of clinical medicine either with, as they’re practicing at the same time or completely leaving practice and give these instructions. So, I was like super excited about the idea but I only knew the utilization review world, so I contacted like everybody I knew who worked in any other field. Pharmaceutical, entrepreneurial, bio-tech and everything. I interviewed tons of doctors, and I got so much inside information and I put it all together in a boo, k and I got it published by Oxford University press, they were wonderful in walking me through the process especially because I had not written anything before.
Dave: So, let me interrupt you there for a second there Heidi, so I want to come back to that but first I want to know more about kind of your early influences. So, you mentioned that you were in a family of doctors…
Dave: Extended family, lots, and lots of physicians.
Dave: Was doing something outside the box something that other family members had been doing at all? Or was it not until you had this moment of revelation? Tell me about that growing up and where you with family in the clinic or at the hospital; what was it like growing up for you?
Heidi: Yeah, I didn’t know anyone who did anything else outside of the box and it was-I was an adult when I made this decision, I was already the mom of two kids, I have three now but I had two already when I made this decision, but it was completely off the wall. And mind you, I was still kind of in medicine but just the whole idea that I would try something that’s not purely clinical practice was crazy. I never knew anyone who did it and nobody in my family knew anyone who did anything like that. So, now that I look back it’s not that weird but at that time it seems completely crazy.
Dave: Your parents are both docs; what did they think?
Heidi: Actually, my father is a physician but my mom whole entire family are physicians and she managed his office, so she was pretty much in the medical field. They were just stunned and very nervous about it and… “how are we going to explain this and what does this mean”? They were still hoping I think that I would go back to practice, it was just very overwhelming for them. My husband who is also a physician was super supportive and that was really nice to have, you know he was like “you’re always talking about these kinds of this you need to just try it out since you finally got this opportunity to do this kind of thing you are so curious about” so that was really cool, that you have to have someone supportive, I think so…
Dave: Yeah, absolutely, because you have your family, you have your own kids. You’re thinking about them and their future I’m sure, anyone of them wants to be doctors at all? With having two physicians and this whole history of doctors
Heidi: Yeah, well it’s funny, my oldest does not want to be a doctor. He is going to college in the fall and he wants to be a computer programmer, computer engineer, which just suits him really well so
Dave: He will help mom and dad in the EMR’s
Heidi: Yeah, right. So, that suits him really well. My other two might want to be doctors and we’re just very much like, really want them to explore their passion and do what they know they will be good at and what they excited about; So, they are a little bit younger to have made that decision yet so we don’t know.
Dave: Sure. Well, in this podcast we talk a lot about money and finances and it’s always just interesting when you see what shapes and mold perception around money. So, what about for you, when you think about growing up, talk about some moments that you can recall that really were your biggest influences when it came to money.
Heidi: Yeah, that’s a good question, I grew up in a family of immigrants, so we didn’t have a lot of-well we didn’t have any family here. So, I really think that anyone who grows up in an immigrant family doesn’t have the same sense of security about things, so it’s basically you have to earn money and you kind of need it as sort of a safety net compared to someone who is maybe more comfortable, not financially but more comfortable in general. So I think sometimes maybe money is needed to replace the fact that you don’t know the system and you don’t have anyone to sort of back you up, and so I do think that perhaps being a second generation it was a little easier for me to step back and say “okay, well I can take this risk and I don’t know if it’s going to still last after a few years, but I know something will work out.” Versus I think when you’re a first generation you just can’t take any risks and it’s totally understandable.
Dave: So, did your parents talk about money? Kind of growing up about being tight wanting to have a lot to fall back on or was it kind of- something that you kind of knew, how did you know that for clarity?
Heidi: I think I kind of knew, I think I grew up with a sense of- one thing I observed among some people, is sort of like you can spend everything or even spend enough to go into debt and that it’s okay, and I definitely didn’t grow up with that attitude that you pretty much have to have a nice big buffer and I still have that attitude now and fortunately and very lucky that my husband have the same attitude, because I think that if he didn’t and if he was more interested in spending everything we had I think it would make me a very uptight, because I think I like having that security too. But I often don’t have- for whatever reason, I don’t have a strong need to prove that I have money. So, I think I watched maybe that a lot, maybe on television or- I don’t know, just kind of observe a little bit and it’s just something I have no interest in, so it’s not a drive for me. And sometimes it sorts of startle me when I hear someone say that they spent something that is really a high amount just to show that they did because I just don’t consider that anything I’d care to have praise for. So, I don’t know maybe it’s some- maybe again, it’s value as an immigrant, as a child of migrants, star immigrants maybe it’s valuing the security more than the showing off that you could accomplish something, I don’t know, never thought so deeply about it.
Dave: sure, that’s why we are here to get to know what’s going on. So, I would love to know how has you go to medical school, your medical school now. At that particular point, did you have to get debt, were your parents really debt averse that they didn’t want you to get any medical school debt or undergraduate school debt. what was that experience like for you?
Heidi: Yeah, well, so undergraduate I had very generous academic scholarships so I did go to an expensive school. I went Case Webster and Reserve University which was pretty pricy but the tuition was very low just because of the academic scholarships that I had received from the school. Then in medical school no such academic scholarship and again I guess culturally, never crossed my parents mind that they would not pay for my education so I was very fortunate that I didn’t have to pay for it. [inaudible 00:12:24] very expensive and I think maybe at that young age I didn’t appreciate how expensive because I wasn’t taking it on myself and that’s not a very common predicament to be in, it’s very nice I guess. So, I did have other classmates that I know also that their parents paid for their education, but it was something that most people didn’t want to say out loud because I think they were in the minority.
Dave: Yeah, absolutely. Actually, I talk to a doctor who said that because he wanted to fit in he took out loans, he didn’t need to but he took out loans just to feel kind of fit in. I think obviously, such a blessing when you start off on that foot. Along this journey did you ever feel like you made any mistakes with money that became your lesson for you? What’s that been like, once you finish medical school and residency, where you’re doing okay but not great.
Heidi: Yeah, I think I really probably- at one point, when I had my first child I was at the end of residency, nearing the end of it and I felt very much that I wanted to be done with training and so I didn’t do a fellowship and I got a job right away, and I got a part time job and I think that I maybe could have stayed as a resident; no not as a resident but that I could have done a fellowship and I felt a little bit like I wanted to hurry up and earn money because I was a mom and my husband was still a resident for another few years after me. And so, I think that I had a little short sight at that point. So, if I were to tell my younger self, what I would do I would say “you know what? A couple years of fellowship is not a big deal, any extra qualification in education is a great thing and I just was probably a little short sited about that one. I think having a job and then I moved from that job when I-I was in Chicago at that time and then I moved back to Cleveland when my husband finished residency and he got his first job here in Cleveland, so I changed jobs and it was a little bit tough on me because I had a private practice job where they weren’t covering my malpractice insurance tail. That was really bad because I had been warned about that when I was looking for job. I’ve been warned by people on my residency who said, “when you apply for practice and your husband is still a resident you may have to leave Chicago, make sure you get this tail covered” and this is a terrible story but I mentioned it in the contract and they said “well, we’ve never heard of a tail, we don’t know what that is”
Dave: Oh, my word
Heidi: made it out like I was kind of crazy and I was very young and very naïve, not that young and I should have been that naïve but I did believe them and then when it did come time for me to leave they said “well, we can’t pay a tail , a tail is $25,000” and I thought “wait a minute, they said they never heard about a tail, they’ve never heard that word before” and they say ten years ago they had try to change malpractice insurance carrier but the tail was going to be too high and so I felt stupid at the time for not really insisting. So I think that one of the things I did was I kind of let myself get pressured, like “oh, trust us, this isn’t a big deal” and I didn’t take the advice of the people who were from my residency, people who were giving me advice who they had nothing in it for them they were just being totally genuine in giving me advice and once I got kind of shut down I let it go., you live and you learn.
Dave: I heard this said a few time that for a physician to negotiate particular with their employer it’s almost like you’ve been through medical school and then residency, it’s almost like you’ve been trained to accept and not…
Heidi: Yeah, I was really silly, you know looking back “Oh, don’t you trust us” and it’s like, you know , now it’s like I’m much older now and it’s like when you watched TV it’s such a cliché “Don’t you trust me” exactly what a person said when they are a bad guy, so just I can’t believe I was that stupid, I mean it was stupid and I really had to dig myself out of that one. We had to pay for me when I moved to Cleveland so that I would be covered and it was just an expensive lesson.
Dave: It sound like it was not unrecoverable though either.
Heidi: Correct, it wasn’t unrecoverable, it was just kind of- not only had I been given good advice, I didn’t take it you know because I got that silly pressure so you just live and learn.
Dave: So, what would you tell someone that’s listening that they’re thinking about going into private practice and you’re telling them, tail coverage is important; what would you suggest to them if they run into a situation like this?
Heidi: I would say, you know what? You are better off doing a fellowship and taking a much lower salary and not have a commitment. Sometimes a university, not all but some university might hire like a part-time clinical faculty and not pay them that much, but you don’t have that issue and so I would say, if you’re not sure you’re going to stay for a long time then don’t get yourself in that kind of situation and I would definitely in a position where I have had one child already, my husband was still a resident and it was very logical and foreseeable to everybody who knew me that there was a big chance I want to move back to Cleveland and come back to be close to my family, so I could get help with the kids , and when my husband looks for jobs Cleveland was very good. So, it was so in hindsight it was like why did I think so short term, I’d kind a wanted to prove myself that I could be an attending and I’m ready to be on my own and, there is no rush that’s probably what I would say. don’t rush and wait until you get the right thing and if you need to do some kind of low paid anything, it’s better than rushing into something where you have a hard time getting out of it.
Dave: That’s good, that’s really, really great mentorship and advice. The other thing that comes to my mind has her talking about dealing with employers, and negotiation, and the tail coverage, and I’ve seen this turned into nightmares a lot of time. It’s just get agreements on paper, no hand shake deals, this wasn’t a hand shake deal but they sort of ignored it, if you were able to capture it on paper that yes, we will do tail coverage for you, it could have been documented rather than accepting it at their word that they didn’t know what it was, so that’s just something that comes to my mind as I think about other physicians that I have heard; you agree, disagree with that?
Heidi: No, I agree, I would definitely do that and I have had, interestingly has I got older and gone from many different kind of jobs; I’ve done tele medicine, and even I have to have mal practice insurance for reviewing cases in ululations (?) review I have always asked for that and I’ve never had a hard time. People when they know that you are more confident in asking for something they don’t beat around the bush and they come back and respectfully give you what you are supposed to get. So, I think that sometimes seeming a little bit naïve to be a problem and unfortunately we like to think of medicine as such an honest profession and it breaks my heart when I hear- because I know I’m not the only doctor who got kind a like brushed aside about certain concerns. I’ve heard things like, not exactly the tail situation but all kinds of other things, from many different physicians over the years. So, the more confident you are about your asking the better.
Dave: Very good, that’s excellent, excellent advice. Now, one other question as we look, this is kind of the past. I want to know kind of the future for you in terms of; how do you think about financial freedom, what does that mean for you?
Heidi: Yeah, good question since I have a [Inaudible 00:21:16] the others kind of follow right behind him. I think that -you know I’ve always had the attitude like I could live a very fugal like if I have to, and so I think for me financial freedom is just knowing that you have what you need and that really the bells and whistles are just bells and whistles, and I think that it’s more of an abstract kind of thing but I feel like I could always- you know there are lots of retired people who travels all over the place and if my husband and I can do that then that’s great and if we can’t you know what, there are lots of parks you can walk around, or lot of nice things. So, I think for you financial freedom is knowing that you don’t have to do anything crazy, you don’t have to work in a situation that you hate because [Inaudible 00:22:18] things are so important.
Dave: (inaudible 00:22:23?) time.
Heidi: Yeah, and that only makes work more enjoyable I think, knowing that you’re working and if you are being compensated well that’s great but you are in a position where you can’t get pushed around I think it’s a nice feeling to have. So, for me it’s definitely the fact that I could live with a lot less if I had to.
Dave: Do you feel that you’re at the point of mental freedom now, or how are tracking progress towards that?
Heidi: Absolutely not! I do not feel that way. So, I have three kids and my oldest is a senior in high school and then I have two that are younger and I’d really like to pay for a good portion of their education and then ideally, I would like to work to enjoy retirement years and travel. So, I don’t feel that way now but at the same time the work that we’re doing, we’re happy with it. So, I guess it’s sort of like I have financial freedom but I’m working and if I didn’t work, then definitely it would hurt as far as what we’d have to pull back on especially with the kids’ college but it would be okay. I’m I ready to quit work? Absolutely not!
Dave: So, let’s talk about that now. So, let’s round back at the beginning where how super passionate you are about physicians and that you wrote the book “Careers Beyond Clinical Medicine” and that you are living as well as writing about, so we got to know a little bit about your inspiration behind it that you just have that euphony one day and your parents were wondering how this is all going to turn out, so you kind of take to the beginning of that journey Heidi, so I’d love to know how did you wrote the book and what happen after that particular point.
Heidi: Oh gosh, thank you. It was really nice, so I wrote the book I had a lot of great guidance from the editors at Oxford University press and then after I wrote it I decided that I needed to figure out how to publicized. It so I started blogging just a tiny bit and then what happened is, I got invited to blog more and it didn’t take very long for me to be invited to blog actually for pay. So, once that started I was like “wait a minute, this is really cool, this is kind of a job. so then I started to actually start to peruse opportunities” I started to put a CD together, and I started to put writing samples together, and once I did that I started to really do a lot more writing to the point that with teaching at a university and writing it adds up to being about full-time, and so that is something that has grown slowly though. I know that a lot of doctors want to write and people are very direct with me, I have people who send me emails and say “how do I write and make a lot of money?” and I’m not in any position where I hire people, so I don’t have that kind of pluot or position at this time. But even so I would think- nothing would ever come to me without me having proven myself. So I would say I’ve been very, very happy that I can write as a, practically like a 50-70% job but I had to prove myself first before anyone was inviting me or paying me for anything and that’s the advice I would give anyone; prove yourself, and it doesn’t hurt anyone to prove yourself and if you think it hurts a lot to prove yourself, like you write a few article for free, if it’s really that horrible for you then maybe you wouldn’t be happy working for money either, you have to enjoy it a little bit at least to be able to put in that evidence that you are good.
Dave: That’s great advice, well then, I know at some point in this journey you were writing, you were blogging. Was that on your own website, other people’s website?
Heidi: It started on others first before my own and then I developed my own. So, I started writing for other and sometimes with a very editorial guidance and sometimes without, sometimes the topics were chosen for me, sometimes I was pitching topics and then has I started to learn more about blogging and about the whole industry of online writing, I realize that this is something that nonclinical careers have a very little sources online as far as real thing. There are lot of advertising on there, like you click on something and then there’s just like things you can sign up for and pay for to, so I was really dedicated then to making a website that would be free and the website has, yes it has a link to my book which is kind of promotional but then I linked it to google ads and when I did that it started bringing in revenue and so that kind of motivated me to provide better and better resources. So, what I have, so I have a place online that I am constantly updating that has links to a lot of different things so to jobs, to dualization[?] jobs, to government jobs, to medical licensing information, to jobs that are available for people who don’t know match which is a really underserved population.
Dave: Heartbreaking moment, heart breaking.
Heidi: it is, it is. And so, I really am striving to provide this has a free resource for people, for that kind of “do it yourselfer” who either want to transition out of clinical medicine or who can’t get into clinical medicine in the first place and needs to do a non-clinical job because they can’t get a license. So, like I said I’m just always working to keep it as updated and as many resources and links as possible, I even had someone reached out to me recently where he developed an app that- or widget I guess is the correct word for it that updates in real time residency flat opening for people who didn’t match.
Dave: Oh wow
Heidi: Yeah, and so what I do is basically re-direct to that website because I just want people to be able to get what they need depending on why they come to my website. There is information on how to negotiate a contract, how to get into the pharmaceutical industry, all these different kind of things and I even have links to physician coaches and mentors because- well, I’m dedicated to keeping it free and I’m pretty handoff has far as, I don’t coach people or charge them any money. If someone wants to pay for a personal coach I have that link too, I have several, because some people want that one-on-one attention, they want someone to guide them and so if that’s what they want to do and they want to pay a person coach I have the people who are experts in guiding physicians out of critical medicine, I have link to them as well.
Dave: I’d love to know this kind of a- someone that comes to mind when you think of someone who maybe they did not get match in residency or they decided they were in clinical medicine and they decide to transition out. So, tell me about the you were able to help someone through this process of getting matched to a non-clinical job, I’d like to know about a time that happen.
Heidi: Yeah, well I had a lot of people who emailed me and I just tell them, try out these links and apply for these jobs and I’d have people come back to me a month or so later and say “I got the job and it’s going well” and then I have people who seems very lost, they don’t know what to do and I tell them, I think you maybe need a physician coach and so I sometimes get feedback about that as well. Sometimes they come back and say “I don’t want to pay” and that’s fine too, but then I told them, take these quizzes, like I give them the link to the quizzes of how you can figure out what’s right for you then, on your own. And I’ve had the people who didn’t match that’s the big one and those are where I have a lot of resources, different kind of licensing that you can get without a residency. So there are things that you can do when it comes to like acupuncture for example, you can do medical aesthetics, you can do even somethings with nerve conduction studies things like that, you can still get a full fledge license, but it’s not an MD license, but at least I help them in terms of having those resources all on one page and they can go and they can see if there is something where I would want to go that route instead it maybe a little faster than residency but it’s easier to get into. So, I sometimes get feedback and I sometimes don’t. I also had people who really insisted on that they didn’t need a coach, but then they seem like they still need one, so I sometimes depending on the personality, I direct them to recruiters. And the thing are recruiters are there are not like many people who are going to say I’m a non-clinical recruiter, a recruiter either work for the pharmaceutical industry or they work for wound care or they work for something very specific. So sometimes I can say, you know what try out this recruiter and then the recruiter just takes over and they get paid through a different route, they get paid by the company that takes the candidates. So, it’s a little bit of (inaudible 32:51) I guess, depending on
Dave: Has I would imagine. Someone has $300,000 in student’s loan they might just be at point where “I just need to get paid so I can move on with my life.”
Heidi: Exactly, and so it depends on different people, “I just need to get pay and I’m willing to pay one of these physician coaches a couple thousand dollars to make that happen”, some people “I’m need to get paid and I’m willing to do the research myself, get my CD together, apply the jobs and make it happen” everybody is different and their personality and that’s perfectly fine whichever way people wants to take to do that.
Dave: I love it, that’s so cool. What a great way to serve the community, the website is nonclinicaldoctors.com , is that the right website?
Heidi: that’s right
Dave: nonclinicaldoctors.com and there are books, there is- I’m poking around on the website right now, there is kind of a job board, careers for physicians without residency, so lots and lots of good stuff on here; tool kit so I encourage everyone to check out this website if you are thinking about wanting to transition out of clinical medicine into non-clinical medicine. There are lots of physicians that are burnt out, out there right now. I would love to do a quick lightning round with Heidi if I could before we rap up this interview.
Heidi: Sure, thank you
Dave: Okay, so question number one: what are the top three financial habits that you have?
Heidi: Let’s see, I guess I would say paying my bills the second I see them is one thing, I checked on my balances periodically, like I have kind of a schedule and a reminder on my phone so that I log in and check every week and other than that, I think I try to have as few credit cards as possible because I’m not smart enough to keep track of too much.
Dave: Awesome. Second question: what is the guilty pleasure, that you spend money on?
Heidi: I would have to say sushi would be the thing
Dave: Sushi my kind of lady; alright a third question: what is being a success mean to you?
Heidi: Being a success to me mean getting along with people, so I think that that’s something like understanding people, where they’re coming from and getting along with people not necessarily being fake but getting along with people and acknowledging that everyone is different and accepting people for their differences, that to me is just priceless.
Heidi: Still working towards it though.
Dave: Aren’t we all, absolutely. Well Heidi, we’re going to wrap up this interview and I have one more big question for you that you talk about previously already some of the advice that you would give to a younger you, when you were talking about not being patient and perhaps having gone through that fellowship. But I’d love to know maybe any other advice that you might give to your younger self beyond that piece of great mentorship. If you are sitting down with a younger Heidi that’s a first-year resident just march out of medical school, what would you tell her?
Heidi: That’s a good question. I would say just study, study a lot. So, there is never enough studying unfortunately as I resident I, looking back if I had just study a lot, ask a lot of question, don’t be afraid to ask questions, learn as much as possible, yeah just learn as much as possible and don’t be afraid to ask questions.
Dave: That is so good. I think there’s a lot of different things that I gained out of our interview today and just talking about your life experience I think a lot of people could, as they look at maybe doing some non-clinical things look at what you’ve done with blogging and how you started out I thought that was great advice of proving yourself. I think that was one big thing that I picked out of the interview today as well obviously you were grateful coming from an immigrant family you’ve obviously take care of money but it doesn’t mean everything to you. I think some of your habits are great and overall, I think it’s just exciting to see someone like you doing something outside the box. So, I’d love to know rom you Heidi, there is so much that we could cover, but do you have any closing thoughts that you want to make us aware of as we leave today?
Heidi: I guess, I would say; I can’t think of anything you’ve been so great at asking questions and you’ve made me think about a lot of things I haven’t thought of before, but I guess I would say just like, one of the biggest thing I’ve learn also is that some of the people who have reached out to me for help have actually been more helpful to me and that’s just something I’ve never saw coming, so I would say don’t hesitate to help people because sometimes I’m taking my time and responding to these emails and I kind of felt I have nothing to get out of it but I was doing it because I may be felt for the person and then sometimes they turn around and really give me some good advices. So, I would say don’t hesitate to help people, you’ll never know what you’ll get out of it and it’s even better when it’s a surprise.
Dave: Awesome. Well, Heidi thank you so much for being with us, and if people have more question how can they get in contact with you?
Heidi: Bestly thing is to contact me on nonclinicaldoctors.com and I will respond.
Dave: Wonderful, well that raps it up for today my friends in the next podcast I would love to tell your story cause it would be my honor to host you on the next podcast because I know we can learn from your journey, just like Heidi’s provided some great mentorship to us today and it will help other doctors. So, I think we really get some good notes out of this conversation with Heidi, I encourage you to re-listen to it particularly the part about writing if you are interested in doing your own blog or something of that nature. Have questions? Want to be on the show? I’d love to have you make sure you contact me at firstname.lastname@example.org or on my website www.doctorfreedompodcast.com . For the freedom formula four physicians’ podcast this is Dave Denniston, remember my friends, remember to slash your debt, slash your taxes and live a liberate lifestyle. And hey, if you gain some value out of this podcast today I will be eternally grateful if you can share it with your friends and share it on social media, the more subscribers we get the more people we make aware of this podcast, the more we can help other people. So again, thank you so much for joining Heidi and I today make sure to subscribe and check in again soon, have a good one.